January 31, 2004

Berkeley on Joel Spolsky



Surrounded by geeks


One of the great things about living in Berkeley is that a lot of interesting people come to town, from political figures giving talks on campus to writers at Cody's to musicians playing at Freight and Salvage, and if you are at all adventurous you can hear and meet many of them. Tonight Berkeley was host to a leading light from the small world of software product and project management, (which also happens to be my profession, to the extent I have one), Joel Spolsky, who writes a well-regarded weblog on software management, Joel on Software. The venue was a funny one, a cafe called Au Coquelet that also served as my alternative office and favorite lunch spot for the eight years that I had an office around the corner. It is a business person's lunch place and a student's dinner and study and hang out place.

So I walked into the cafe tonight and looked around for the Joel group -- like any other geek, I was too shy to ask anyone, but when I spotted a big table lined entirely with males, mostly in their mid-twenties to early forties, not too well dressed, predominantly European-American, I knew that I had found the geek gathering. It was a curious scene. Joel was ensconced at the first table, attempting to swallow bites of foot between responding to questions. Latecomers like myself were filling in the table around the corner, where we slowly warmed up to each other by discussing computers in education and citing favorite Joel essays like The Law of Leaky Abstractions, 12 Steps to Better Code, and Fire And Motion. The crowd included its share of local luminaries, such as Berkeley tech writer Scott Mace, Salon Managing Editor Scott Rosenberg, Ten Speed Press founder Phil Wood, Perl Guru Sriram "Ram" Srinivasan, plus the usual crowd of dot-com crash victims, cashed-out retirees and survivors looking for the next interesting thing that I run into at any tech gatherings these days. Next to us were two undergraduate women, who slowly got more and more alarmed as more men kept arriving and hauling over tables, eventually enveloping them on three sides, at which point the women got up and left.



Head Geek Joel


It is always fun meeting someone whom one knows only through their writing, and to compare their online persona to their physical one. In his writing in Joel on Software, Joel always comes across as a little Olympian, delivering his deep insights from his vast experience. Actually, I suspect that he just thinks more analytically about his experience than most of us, and he writes very well. His online persona is calm, considered, and wise. As another Californian reviewer noted, even though his website sports a picture of the skyline of Seattle, Joel Spolsky in person definitely comes across like a New Yorker, especially when surrounded by a sea of Californians. He spoke rapidly, intensely, bobbing his head as he held forth with opinions on all matters technical, changing topics with every other sentence, and punctuating each topic with a wisecrack. Although claiming exhaustion from his travels, he was the most energetic person in the room, and he was clearly performing, and performing well. He seemed to enjoy his performance as well, and he was good at it. Talking to him, it was clear that he would be very hard to best in an argument, because, as anyone who reads Joel on Software knows, he has a lot of intellectual horsepower and can express himself very well, but also because he clearly has a lot of stamina for arguing, and would be hard to outlast. The major deviation that he exhibited from the New York stereotype was his politeness. After he finished his meal he got up and moved to another table to talk with some of the other folks who had come, then after a while moved to the next table. He was as attentive to the questions of the twenty-something programmers as he was to those of the local luminaries.

One of the things that was curious was to see the crowd (myself included) surrounding Joel and treating him like a Delphic Oracle, asking him "what are Mozilla/Firebird's chances of establishing browser competition again(good), how do you decide what features to put in the next version of Fog Buzz (whatever features the lack of which clearly blocked sales of the last version), what would you use for developing a cross-platform GUI desktop app (don't know). After all, even if he is smarter than I am he probably isn't any smarter than many of the people I've worked with over the years. What's the difference? He writes, frequently and well. It's nice to know that writing still can bring authority, as well as a bit of celebrity.

All in all, a very pleasant and informative evening. Thank you Joel for organizing it.

Cross posted on The Berkeley Blog

Posted by Geodog at January 31, 2004 02:26 AM | TrackBack
Comments

My apologies, but my web hoster has turned off commenting, due to a flood of obscene spam bringing the server to its knees. I hope to have this weblog transitioned over to Wordpress in the near future, so that I can have commenting up and working again. Until then, please feel free to send me your comments via my email contact form.. Please ignore everything below this comment.

Cool. This describes more-or-so how the Montréal gathering was, except the few women that were there didn't leave and it was something like -45 degrees celcius outside.

Posted by: Oli on February 1, 2004 11:46 AM

-45 C? Better you than me, mon ami.

P.S. As noted on the discussion board at Fogcreek, I made a pretty bad typo in this writeup. For the record, Joel had "bites of food", not "bites of foot".

Posted by: Geodog on February 1, 2004 09:54 PM

hi,
does anyone knows when joel will come to london for a meetup??

Posted by: totorelli on February 2, 2004 03:35 AM

Out of curiousity - is the Phil Wood of 10 Speed Press the same guy as the Phil Wood of the super-high-end bicycle parts? http://www.philwood.com/

- just wondering in NYC

Posted by: anon on February 2, 2004 07:37 AM

"Joel was...attempting to swallow bites of foot between responding to questions..."

Most of us put our whole foot into our mouths... Which still begs the question of whether it was Joel's own foot or someone else's. I hope that the foot was reasonably clean, in any case. ;-)

Fun writeup anyway. Thanks much!

Posted by: cubiclegrrl on February 2, 2004 07:41 AM

"Most of us put our whole foot into our mouths"

Most of us only have only one mouth!

Fun comment though! Thanks a lot!

Posted by: anon on February 2, 2004 04:34 PM

I enjoyed your writeup. sadly I had to go to another engagement...

Stellar link to Cody's books, also. Didn't realize so much was happening in my backyard.

Posted by: Ralph on February 2, 2004 11:24 PM

To my 3,000 and counting visitors from Joel on Software, I didn't know so many people read Joel, from all over the world. Welcome. And thank you Joel for the link. I did the write-up as a lark -- I'm glad people seem to like it.

Anon in NYC,
The person who I was told was Phil Wood at the Joel gathering lives and works in Berkeley, so I doubt he is the biking Phil Woods, who is in San Jose.

Others,
I am glad you are having fun with my typo. Should I go back and fix it? So far, I've been inclined to leave it there.

Ralph,
I've trying to organize listing of some of the great things that go on in Berkeley in one place, and I'm slowly building up a page on it. Feel free to check out my website's Berkeley page if you are interested.

Posted by: Geodog on February 3, 2004 12:54 AM

It's Fog Bugz ... not Fog Buzz.

Posted by: Joe Grossberg on February 3, 2004 01:56 PM

If whoever asked is still wondering:

"... what would you use for developing a cross-platform GUI desktop app ..."

I used Java for a while, but found out (for reasons Joel has stated, and others) that it's not a sufficient solution.

I'm now toying with "wxwindows", and it seems to be much better. It's vaguely like MFC (some people say better, but I only know a very little MFC), and it compiles to native Windows/Linux binaries with native Win32/GTK+ widgets (and others, but these seem the most mature). You can always #ifdef for platform-specific features (get at an HWND on Win32, for example). I'll probably need to do this for file-dialog preview-components, which it doesn't seem to have.

If the Mac folks got wxmac up to speed, this could be the "less than 10%" solution Joel has mentioned (but it's not mature enough yet).

It also has good Python (and Perl) bindings, so you can write Python and drop down to C++ when needed.

Oh, and it's more than 10 years old, so it doesn't suck too much.

(Have I hit all the Joel seal-o'-approval checks? :-)

Posted by: Ken on February 4, 2004 01:32 PM

Oh, and it's more than 10 years old, so it doesn't suck too much.

... however because it's x-platform and pretty old, wxWindows is required to compile on a lot of old compilers resulting in a subset of CPP


read more here (interview with WxWindows lead)

Posted by: goon on February 4, 2004 03:47 PM

I don't want to get drawn into a slashdot-esque pro/anti-wxWindows flamefest, but...

"... however because it's x-platform and pretty old, wxWindows is required to compile on a lot of old compilers resulting in a subset of CPP"

So? Everything uses a subset of C++. I've never seen a program in my life that used anywhere near all of C++'s features.

If it offends your sensibilities that it uses its own wxString instead of , well, that's on the chopping block for wxWindows 2.6, as are templates and exceptions and a bunch of other stuff. The wx* classes behave almost identically to the STL/C++ classes where they have the same functionality, so the learning curve is virtually zero.

(It weirded me out for a little bit, I admit, until I realized that it didn't stop me from writing cool programs that look great. I have to type a couple extra characters every now and then to convert between strings and wxStrings -- a very small price to pay.)

Note that simply because the wxWindows library doesn't use things like STL and templates, doesn't stop you from using them yourself -- I use them all the time.

Posted by: Ken on February 4, 2004 04:22 PM
Post a comment